Card Builders, anyone?

General discussions related to the Altair 8800 Clone

Card Builders, anyone?

Postby KenF » October 6th, 2022, 10:39 am

Anybody else on here that makes their own cards? Either by sending a KiCad file to a fab shop, or from scratch? I actually got into the PCB hobby somewhat before restarting my interest in 8 bit computers - sometime in the early 90's. As my interest in 808x/Z80s is to use them, rather than collect and restore, a specific need for the bus is not satisfied by going to Amazon and viewing their vast offers of S-100 cards.

Nowadays the process is fairly inexpensive, although requiring a considerable amount of space and LOTS of water, but really good, if not totally professional-fablab quality, cards can be made. I see a considerable number of builders that design circuits and micros, but all send them out to be actually made. (https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=start) Probably doesn't cost that much, but has to take a week or two or more before something comes back. I can make an S-100 (or S-44, S-86, etc) card in about an hour, not including soldering components. (And definitely not including KiCad time, which can be an hour or a month.)

Just curious. Haven't yet found anyone who does the whole raw process.

Ken
KenF
 
Posts: 30
Joined: April 25th, 2022, 11:13 am

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby BillO » October 6th, 2022, 3:24 pm

I do, but not for S100 (yet). I use DipTrace for schematic design and PCB layout then send them off to JLCPCB to have the bare boards made. I used to use PCBWay, but JCLPCB just has much better pricing especially on 4 layer boards.

I haven't etched my own PCB since I was 14.
BillO
 
Posts: 136
Joined: November 11th, 2020, 6:29 am

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby KenF » October 7th, 2022, 10:48 am

How long does it take to get a card back from fab? Always wondered and never asked.
Ken
KenF
 
Posts: 30
Joined: April 25th, 2022, 11:13 am

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby BillO » October 7th, 2022, 5:14 pm

KenF wrote:How long does it take to get a card back from fab? Always wondered and never asked.
Ken
About 2 weeks for Canada.

For instance, my last order was for 5 100mm x 100mm 4-layer boards. I put in the order on August 11th and they were delivered to me on August 22nd. That was for the lowest cost shipping.

They actually shipped me 6 boards. Total, including shipping was $16.32 CDN (or about $12 USD). I don't bother hand wiring prototypes anymore unless they are real simple or I'm crunched for time.
BillO
 
Posts: 136
Joined: November 11th, 2020, 6:29 am

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby KenF » October 7th, 2022, 6:02 pm

Wow. Would never have thought that they could be so inexpensive. My guess would have been 20 or 30 dollars per card, and that for a simple one. Not really worth doing yourself, then, except that I really enjoy the process.

Ken
KenF
 
Posts: 30
Joined: April 25th, 2022, 11:13 am

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby Wayne Parham » October 7th, 2022, 6:31 pm

I'll second PCBway and JLCPCB for raw fiberglass. Both are fast and easy to work with, provided you upload Gerber files. Both companies are optimized for online ordering.

For me, both have been competitive on two-layer boards with solder mask and silkscreen, but I have one board (a loudspeaker crossover) that's "old school" and doesn't need a solder mask or silkscreen, but it does need large traces. For that kind of board, I found PCBway was more competitive than any of the other vendors. I buy hundreds at a time though, so that's different than one-offs too.

Another call-out that may or may not be useful is Gorilla Circuits in San Jose, California. They're an assembly house, so if you need full manufacturing of a design (rather than just a board), they'll do it for you. I've had good experiences with them.

It's kind of sad to me, because in the 1980s almost every city in America larger than a few hundred thousand in population had an assembly house like that. By Y2K, there were definitely less of 'em around. And now they're almost extinct in the USA.
Wayne Parham
 
Posts: 240
Joined: March 18th, 2022, 3:01 pm

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby MajorClements » October 7th, 2022, 7:13 pm

KenF wrote:Anybody else on here that makes their own cards? Either by sending a KiCad file to a fab shop, or from scratch? I actually got into the PCB hobby somewhat before restarting my interest in 8 bit computers - sometime in the early 90's. As my interest in 808x/Z80s is to use them, rather than collect and restore, a specific need for the bus is not satisfied by going to Amazon and viewing their vast offers of S-100 cards.

Nowadays the process is fairly inexpensive, although requiring a considerable amount of space and LOTS of water, but really good, if not totally professional-fablab quality, cards can be made. I see a considerable number of builders that design circuits and micros, but all send them out to be actually made. (https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=start) Probably doesn't cost that much, but has to take a week or two or more before something comes back. I can make an S-100 (or S-44, S-86, etc) card in about an hour, not including soldering components. (And definitely not including KiCad time, which can be an hour or a month.)

Just curious. Haven't yet found anyone who does the whole raw process.

Ken


I guess what I'm attempting to do is as raw as it gets. I have no idea what I am doing, but I am learning as I go. Truthfully, I'm not working on an S-100 card, but I'm trying my hand at making a physical demonstration of how memory works for the average John Doe. The memory is using four AMD AM9101's, with two in Parallel to make 8-Bits. Then the second set of two to make 4Kb. This design was based on the Altair 680's 1KB memory board. Initially, it was just to read and write 0's and 1's using a bank of 8 LEDs for visual-aide, then I decided to use a hex to 7-seg LED driver IC. Now, it has evolved into a more practical and relatable setup, the output of the memory would go into a Character Generator IC, like a Motorola MCM6574, then output to an 8x8 LED matrix. All of this is still up in the air, but I think it would better explain how a raw text file works on the computer. I plan to use a similar 8-Bit input to the Altair, so the operator would have to study the 6574's character set for inputting the proper code. Maybe, I'll replace it with a keyboard.

I am still new to the whole PCB design process. Heck, I still haven't even taken "Engineering Design" at my community college yet (that will be next semester). I'm using the "learn as I work"-approach with KiCad. It took me a few days to come up with the hex to 7-seg. design on my circuit. On top of all that, it doesn't help that no one makes these chips anymore. I know experience really helps, but how does your design process work for creating these S-100 cards, is there a common template you use?

More generally though, it's amazing how easy it is for anyone to design and manufacture PCBs nowadays compared to 10 years ago. I am surprised by the vast amount of replica boards available to buy, like an Apple I motherboard or that Altaid 8800. To see people making S-100 boards again will spark a new interest in 8-Bit Microcomputers for my generation (Z). Heck, I didn't even know about the Altair until I watched Pirates of Silicon Valley when I was 12. On top of that, it will save older systems from being thrown out due to bad caps, faulty ROMs, or dead cards. The vintage stuff fetches astronomical prices, for what essentially is just 32KB of memory. A 512MB stick of SDRAM can be purchased for literal pennies.
Sincerely,
Daniel
________________________________________________________________________________
“THINK!”
If you had to remember only one thing about me, just know that I’m the guy with too many ThinkPads to count.
MajorClements
 
Posts: 18
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:18 am
Location: McLean, Virginia

Re: Card Builders, anyone?

Postby KenF » October 8th, 2022, 8:21 am

MajorClements wrote:
I am still new to the whole PCB design process. Heck, I still haven't even taken "Engineering Design" at my community college yet (that will be next semester). I'm using the "learn as I work"-approach with KiCad. It took me a few days to come up with the hex to 7-seg. design on my circuit. On top of all that, it doesn't help that no one makes these chips anymore. I know experience really helps, but how does your design process work for creating these S-100 cards, is there a common template you use?


I don't use the KiCad library at all. It is far too large and filled with stuff I never even heard of and will never see, which makes it difficult to find something as simple as an ordinary transistor. I made my own user library gradually over the years to fit my own needs. For my cards, S-100 and S-86, I start with a template with the size of the card outlined and the full pin rows at the bottom filled with labels. Then I fill in the blanks, so to speak, with whatever I am designing.

I also have pre-made templates that have the buffer and driver ICs that are common to many cards already in place. The advantage of this is that that part of the design has long since been tested and I know that everything is correct.

But, as to being new and confusing, it is an art as much as a science. My first products back in the 90s were so laughable that I wouldn't show them to my nerd friends. They had more rework wires than card copper.

But it was, and is, fun.
Ken
Attachments
s100.jpg
KenF
 
Posts: 30
Joined: April 25th, 2022, 11:13 am


Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

cron